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Belacutie and Edhan, I need your help badly please. I have had two horrific days of suicidal thoughts and my energy is really low at the moment.
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Zanzivar,
Instead of giving you the normal guidance, I can say a little more because I've read your posts and know a bit about how you think and I can honestly say that I think you are extremely cool. Your posts crack me up. There is a real fantastic balance of wisdom and audacity that is very rare. I think you inspire a lot of people on this site with your posts and character, which is incapable of imitation. You are honest, gutsy, strong, and very intuitive. Now why should a person with such unique and awesome qualities ever do anything to hurt themselves? They shouldn't!
I know you've talked about some things that you struggle with, but lets not forget that your struggle have given you insight into human nature, and I -- we all -- have seen that insight illuminate this site on a number of occasions. You're in the process of converting your suffering into something beautiful, even if you have occasional hiccups like the past two days. So even in all this sadness, there is something beautiful inside it, and in a way, you can even be grateful for how it has helped you helped others.
Finally, I will say that having a suicidal thought is just a thought. It doesn't have control over you. YOU always retain the option to follow it, ignore it, or maybe look deeper into it and find peace. Being sad has a way of coloring one's perception to make everything look dark and gloomy. But behind that gloominess, there is hope that things can improve and reach a state of rest.
YOU, Zanzivar, are gutsy. Stand up to those thoughts and challenge them! Tell them that they don't know what the fuck they're talking about and let them tire themselves out. Fuck em. Even if there are things that aren't running smoothly in your life, you know that you can find better ways to deal with it all than doing anything to hurt yourself. Why? Because you're awesome. Simple.
If you wait this out (and talk a little shit to it) you'll be hopeful before you know it. In the meantime, you can occupy your time with things you find soothing and meaningful, like reading, listening to stuff you find beautiful, watch some good movies, and resting.
You'll be okay! Keep us updated on your progress and let us know if anything seems to help you feel calmer (even if the thoughts don't go away, which they don't have to).
Wow, Edahn, your post has left me flabbergasted! Thanks a million. I've re-read it ten times and I've left all those lovely things you said seep into my system. This morning I went out into our gym and as I cycled, walked and weight-lifted I imagined that I was pounding these thoughts down through my head and out through my toes. I found the energy and I know that most of it came from your post. Now I feel fit and able again and I know that at least for today I won't have suicidal thoughts. I have come to know what stage I'm at now after a long time. There is a pattern forming and I'm getting to know it. When they reach a peak though it becomes terrifying and I feel out of control. I didn't give in this time though to experimenting like I used to before. It weakens the system though and what I am afraid of happening is that I may get weaker in the future instead of stronger. However today I feel really strong and it would be great if I could tuck this strength away and call on it at a future date. Or maybe that is what is happening already... Anyway, you have made my day or maybe a week or even a month by writing this post for me. I hope that I will be back with some good (or strange!) answers again soon. Thanking you so much.
Zanzivar
:D
You made one mistake though, when you said "I found the energy and I know that most of it came from your post." None of it came from my post. My post just POINTED to the strength and kick-ass-ness that is already there. You don't have to tuck the strength away for a future date because it's already inside you. I am positive about that. You found the courage to not be afraid of your thoughts and that courage came from you, not me.
:)
Here's to talking shit! Cheers!
Hey Zanzivar,
I'm sorry I couldn't answer sooner, but I was having trouble with my computer - the modem wasn't working and I needed to get a new one. Sorry to hear you're going through a bad time and it's good that Edahn was able to help you. I agree with everything he said - that you don't have to listen to those thoughts and that deep inside you're a strong person. You did the right thing by going to the gym - I firmly believe that a strong body leads to a strong mind. The one thing I learned the last three days is that I haven't been exercising(I weight lift also) as much as I should and spending a little too much time on the computer. The last three months I bet I've lost 50% of my strength from not exercising - anyway enough about me LOL.
I don't have much to add since Edahn covered everything. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this website so I'll give it to you:
http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/ it's a very good website which talks about how when someone's suicidal their thoughts outweigh their coping stategies - going to the gym was an excellent coping strategy. Edahn's right the strength does come from within YOU and I agree that you are a strong woman. I know you've been through this before and you need to hang in there until these feelings go away. Make sure you take a look at your life and make sure it's balanced - becasue any lack of balance can make you more prone to sad feelings. I too feel that you're a fighter - not a person who gives up. Make sure you're eating super healthy and keep up with the exercising - I'm going to get back in my routine also. Do what ever it takes to get yourself back on track. I hope by the time you read this, you'll be feeling a little better. Hugs Bella :)
Welcome back bella!
It's interesting that all 3 of us weight-lift. How much do you guys bench? We should have an Answer.Psychcentral.Com weightlifting competition. LOL
You think so Edhan? I'm not so sure...
Sometimes it makes all the difference when someone chooses the right words to talk to you. You have a great talent and I hope that you are able to use this all the time in your working life. That's why I and a lot of people say that psychologists or those who are interested in psychology are the most important people to have in the world. Where would I hear those words in my ordinary everyday life? "You're grand" is the biggest compliment I ever get from my husband or kids! I mean...How the fuck is someone to keep going on with those kind of compliments??? (See...I'm starting to use your language!! Hee, Hee!).
No, in my case you didn't just point to the strength, you rose it up until it welled inside in me. No shit! You did! (I can see you getting embarrassed over me praising you and it is making me laugh!). I'm back to using the exclamation mark as well which is always a great sign!
There is something beautiful happening by the way as well. Because of my sickness down through the years one of my daughters wants to become a clinical psychologist. Isn't that so cool? Not only that but when you said that I was in the process of converting my suffering into something beautiful...well...you have really shifted my thinking into a whole new realm. I got a shock when I read that sentence!It was even like a slap in the face...or a wake-up call and sometimes we need to hear that. I had never thought of looking at what I went through in this way. Never! So words make a huge difference, Edhan.
Now... I have new questions, new eyes and maybe even new ears and my perspective on life today has certainly changed.
Love Zanzivar.
Bellacutie, Thank you so much for responding! I had a look at your website and the tears started trickling down my face. The site is worded wonderfully and it really feels as though the person talking cares. I think that's all we suicidal people need...other people. It makes such a difference and it is so great to be able to express it. I can't tell them at home when I am feeling suicidal. Look how terrible they would feel.
But I can't afford to keep things to myself anymore. Bottling things up is what put me into the hospital in the first place. I know that for a fact. Now I am finding people outside the home (that aren't emotionally attached to me but who care all the same) and that is such a relief. Suicidal people must above all else find someone who will listen to them yet offer advice at the same time. It is no good just listening and saying nothing. That might work for other problems but not in the area of suicide.
I had tablets stashed away in my bedroom upstairs but this evening I have given them back to the chemist. Now I feel a bit afraid because I am thinking that I have nothing to fall back on if things get too much for me. Isn't that a funny feeling? I did it today because I felt stronger after Edhans post and I know that the real part of me is glad that I did it. Sometimes when I am suicidal I think that I am a different person completely and when I become well again I can't understand how I was thinking like that in the first place! It baffles me and leaves me feeling bewildered and confused. Is there really another person inside of me??
Anyway, sure I'm after surviving it now and that is the main thing. By the way, Bellacutie, if you are stuck on the computer too long - you can still exercise. Right now (as I am typing) I am clenching the muscles in my arse and the tops of my thighs! Some people have said that I have a great bottom and that I should get it insured! So keep doing this and soon you will have one like mine!
Zanzivar.
If only you could learn to spell my name right:
E-D-A-H-N
LOL
:D
Thanks Edahn, I'm happy to be back! :D
Thanks Zanzivar for the reply and I'm glad you're feeling better/out of danger. Don't worry - me and my butt are just fine LOL - I'm blessed with good genes being naturally slim. I just need to get back into my routine - I think I won't go on the computer unless I've done my workout for the day(self discipline). I've never had trouble with being on the computer before - I just started on this sight in March and I just love interacting with people and helping them in their time of need.
I'm glad that you got rid of those pills and I hope you will figure out what coping strategy works best for you. I think people who are suicidal do actually feel very different, once that WAVE of bad feelings have passed - that's why you should always trust those feelings will go away. I think Edahn is correct that bad feelings or experiences can lead to emotional and spiritual growth - sometimes it forces us to make changes that leads to better things. Try to always remember what the Metanoia website says - to WAIT when you have those feelings and you don't need to give in to those urges where you just want to get relief(suicide). Be stubborn and rebel against those feelings. I do think it's important to ask yourself what is at the root of those feelings, so that you can attempt to solve them. This way, you can get rid of those feelings once and for all. You take care and try to keep strong Zanzivar. :)
Now we just have to find a way to get bella to use the F-word and this day will be complete. LOL
^^^^
LOL :)
Dear E-d-a-h-n,(there I got your name right!). I mean what the fuck was I thinking? I've been looking at your name for ages and I couldn't spell it right! God, sometimes something IS just in front of your eyes and you can't see it! Thanks for pointing that out!
Anyway, Edahn and bellacutie - I know what is at the heart of my suicidal thoughts. I've known it with a while but don't know how to make it right. I'm afraid to love and be loved. Yes, it is as simple as that. I am afraid of rejection, that I will be hurt physically and emotionally, that I will hurt someone in return or that I will be used for sexual purposes only. I know that all this is coming from the rapes I experienced when I was 15, having a boyfriend turn his back on me when I was pregnant at 18, having to put that child up for adoption and then having an affair and hurting my husband. God, my history is very poor.
I was never very close to my father. He was an alcoholic and he told me one time that he never wanted a girl so I disassociated myself from him. Ironically when my parents split up we started to get on but after a couple of months he decided to die on me. At that funeral I never shed a tear and now that is the way I want to be about every person in my life. I don't want to feel anything for them and I don't want them to feel anything about me. I want to feel neutral with regards to feeling love for a person. This is how I can protect myself so that if there was ever a repeat of what happened in my past then I will be able to cope.
However, since going into therepy these type of feelings are arising within me and I can't make them go away. It is really freaking me out and sending me into a panic. You have no idea how scared I am of love. I'm terrified to experience it and I just can't trust that emotion at all. It's too strong an emotion for me as is hatred. I don't want to experience that either. Instead I want to stay detached so that the people that I am supposed to love can die or leave me freely and of course I want to do the same. For that reason I push my children to be more independent then I should, I don't tell anyone that I love them and I cringe at hugs.
Sorry about the long post but I had to get this off my chest.
Zanzivar
Thanks for sharing your painful past and it's good that you know what's bothering you. Unfortunately most of these painful things happened when you were young and your mind was still forming thought processes. You weren't shown unconditional love from your father so it's not surprising that you struggle with this emotion in your life. The rapes also had a huge impact on you in so many ways and only a rape victim can understand that pain. You were let down and hurt when you were very young and as a result you put up a shield as a coping mechanism - to protect yourself from being hurt again. But this wasn't an effective coping skill, only a temporary one. The only way to deal with these issues is to work through the pain and heal the young woman inside yourself.
It's true, love is painful sometimes and anyone who risks loving or being loved will feel pain and rejection sometimes. But as the old saying goes - 'it's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all'. I think you go through these stages where you feel suicidal because this is your sub-conscious putting up a 'red flag' - it's saying "hear me and pay attention to me". It's telling you that somethings not balanced and needs attention. These feelings force you to stop and pay attention to yourself and the pain.
I hope that you'll continue therapy so that you can heal that 'young Zanzivar'(and love her), so that you no longer have to carry around the pain of the past. Try to be patient with yourself and best of luck. Bella :)
Aw. Thanks for sharing all that.
I think the fear of rejection is the most frequent struggle of our times. Just so you know, it's the thing that I've been struggling with too for the 7 or 8 years, possibly even more. It's one of the main reasons I got into psychology and also, one of the main sources of my understanding other people's suffering. It gives me a way to understand people who suffer with fear of rejection and the depression that results when you push everyone away and feel alone. I also experience what I call micro-depressions when I can't be myself, which happens when I'm so busy trying to manage my anxiety and control my thoughts and feelings.
And yet I've experienced moments where I find ways to overcome that fear of rejection and find a way to let things be and be myself, even if my self is nervous or sad. Often times it happens by itself, but when I examine what has happened, I conclude that the main thing that has changed is my patience with myself and my attitude towards myself. Instead of CALCULATING and trying to out-strategize my anxiety and keep my micro-depressions away, I shift into a listening mode where I am patient and kind towards myself. It's the same listening mode you cultivate by posting here and listening to other people's dilemmas. You can also think of it as being a friend to yourself. Instead of controlling your fears, you sit back and watch them with strength and courage.
The anxiety and sadness don't necessarily disappear, but that shift in attitude makes them weak enough so I'm not afraid of them and not bothered. When that happens, I can start to be myself and connect to other people. I can be vulnerable while maintaining my strength. When I make decisions FROM THAT NEW AWARENESS, they are always done to bring harmony and for my long-term benefit, and I can trust them. They are, in other words, wise decisions.
That attitude shift is exactly what the Buddhist jerks (lol) are talking about when they talk about Mindfulness. It's the same experience that's at the heart of every mystical tradition from Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) to Sufism (the Islamic* mystical branch) to Hinduism and Buddhism and even Christianity. There are two authors I've found whose language really resonates with me who teach this attitude shift we call Mindfulness. Eckhart Tolle is one, the Oprah guy. He is absolutely brilliant. The other is Tara Brach, which is so gentle with her words. I think you should pick up Brach's book.
Here's a video of Tara. She's really peaceful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6_IEe3VJXs
Here's the book. If you look at the Used versions, any one marked "Very Good" will be in excellent condition and the first one, also the cheapest one, happens to be Very Good. What luck! http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0553801678/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
You, Zanzivar, already have a lot a lot of insight into the nature of your experience. That is an incredible step, way beyond the level of insight that most people who have undergone your circumstances would EVER have. I think this practice of watching your experience and being aware would help you take the next step in actually stepping up to your fears and healing yourself so you can move on and start to make and repair the connections in your life.
:)
On the other hand, maybe you weren't asking for advice at all and just wanted to be heard, lol. In which case you can ignore this post. :)
~E
P.S. Lovely post, bella.
* The word "Islam" actually means surrender. You can think of it as surrender to a being, but I think of it as surrender to one's situation. Surrender is the same as that attitude shift, because you give up on trying to prevent everything and shift into looking at what's happening and being open to it, i.e., listening. I just thought that was interesting and think it's ironic how that concept seems to have been forgotten.
^^^^
Wonderful and enlightening post Edahn.
Bellacutie, I will certainly continue therapy. In fact, I would go so far as to say that everyone in the world should have some form of counscelling. I'm very lucky. I seem to have a group of people who seem to have a very genuine concern for my welfare and when I come away from there - it feels like I was just at a beautician's. I actually feel clean and fresh and able to face the world again easily for a week or so afterwards. But then another layer seems to be exposed and I have to work through a new area again.
After reading Edahn's post I found myself listening to the last session I had with my community health nurse. We touched on the most violent rape but I felt very vulnerable throughout it. I can't seem to maintain my strength when I feel vulnerable. I feel like breaking down instead and when I feel that vulnerability happening I try to change the subject. I'm afraid of appearing weak and defenceless and I don't want to be a victim at all even though I was one. So now instead of continuing and talking about the rapes I want to avoid the subject in the next session. Does this make any sense to you Edahn? How do you know when your clients are vulnerable? How do you get them to open up and trust you whilst feeling this way? Do you allow them to cry and how do you get them to come back after a crying session? If I break down I will feel humiliated and embarrassed - the same feelings that I experienced at the hands of one of the rapes. Do you or would you encourage clients to re-experience feelings like these in your safe environment, Edahn?
You hit it on the nail when you mentioned your own fear of rejection Edahn. So tell me this...Do you think our fear of rejection is coming from a fear of God? Why does rejection hurt us so much? I felt that there was a double rejection when I put my child up for adoption. My boyfriend rejected me and I rejected my son. Who rejected you Edahn and did you in turn reject somebody else? This is only a question not an accusation. How have you used that rejection in your life or do you think that you have escaped from it? I don't think that I have escaped at all. It seems like it is still happening and that there has been no time in between.
Sorry about all the questions but this is what stirred in my brain after reading both of your posts. I don't know whether the questions are for me or you or if I am having some kind of a psychological breakthrough or what. I enjoy questioning things though and have found this to be an enormous help before in calming suicidal thoughts. Surrendering to the thoughts though would be a relatively new area for me and is something I will ponder about. Now I must go on and try out Tara, Edahn.
Zanzivar
Hey again, Z.
I'm not actually a therapist. I went to law school and do this because I enjoy it more. I'm thinking of applying to graduate school for psychology but haven't committed to the idea completely. So I can't really answer about what I'd do with my clients, since I have none.
However, if I did have a session and I noticed someone trying to change the subject, I would ask them about what they're trying to avoid. I wouldn't force someone to talk about THE EXPERIENCE, but I would invite them to talk about their hesitations, see what it's about, and let them know that it's okay if they break down. I would have no problem with crying at all. Maybe something good would come from that -- some insight, some healing, and some closure. Maybe something would be revealed in that process that is significant. I'm all up for letting people's experience be voiced rather than silenced.
Regarding the questions about rejection, this is something I still struggle with. Where does it come from? I think rejection creates sadness and I think our biology instructs us to avoid sadness naturally. By avoiding sadness and rejection, we continue bad relationships, procreate, and continue the species. So a fear of rejection actually makes a lot of sense. The problem is that evolution was designed around permanence, not happiness. So if we want to be happy, sometimes we need to rise up against those fears and make appropriate changes.
Have I hurt people? Yes. Often times I push them away because my own fears leave me feeling empty. I attribute that emptiness to they way THEY'RE affecting me, and I end things, even though I know deep down that my emptiness comes from me (and from biology). I am trying to be more honest with myself. I've found that honest breeds responsibility, and responsibility is the foundation for good decisions.
You seem much calmer to me, like you've released something. And don't worry about offending me. I only get offended when people pick on me for things I try to change. You're not the type to pick on me, so it's cool.
~E
Dear Edahn, First off can I say that I know we don't normally leave posts go on this long but if at any stage you don't feel the need to reply to me then maybe in later posts we can pick up on subjects again. The thing is - I find you a fascinating individual and I love the way you think. Sometimes I feel that you are feeding and nourishing me and I have watched yours and Bellacuties posts without replying to them. I think that this is the most people-friendly site I have ever come across and to be able to swear is a dream come true! People are really at the heart or soul of their being when they can really be themselves and express themselves in their own special form.
Whatever you do Please go for the psychology course. Look at the amount of psychology that goes on inside in court cases anyway and it will give you an amazing insight into how criminal minds work and you should be able to tell better if they are truthful or not.
It's great to know that you would have no trouble with crying at all but what if you came across crying so much that you were not able to empathise with your client any longer? I have seen this happening in the clinic that I attend. Sometimes people are crying away on their seats and doctors pass up and down as if nothing is happening. I think that this is unfair on the individual so I have often gone up and spoken to them. And tell me this...Would you know of the individual (who has done all their crying at home before coming to you) and who then talks about their experience without emotion? I have often done this so that I wouldn't break down in front of the doctor but I feel that I am not getting across the seriousness of the particular problems because of this and that I am giving a false picture without the emotion behind it.
You say that by avoiding sadness and rejection we continue bad relationships. Are you saying that if we didn't avoid the sadness and rejection we might create better relationships? Yes, there could be a lot of truth in that.
Honesty is a bit like finding the truth about oneself. It's a funny one because if we were trully honest with ourselves none of us could say for definate what we would do when various situations present themselves. I tend to look honestly at my weaknesses at the moment but would you believe I have never looked honestly at my strengths. Isn't that strange? Instead I see myself as weak physically compared to men, an adulteress, a desperate shoplifter and a self-abuser. Because of these pictures I can't see my essence anymore but some people (like yourself) have pointed out a lot to me.
No, you are not the type of person who would get insulted (thank God). I would definately be like you in this way. Sometimes that is the beauty of having bad experiences. All smaller matters like becoming insulted are insignificant aren't they? And all the ordinary everyday life problems are so easy to solve whereas other individuals would have fierce problems. I've only just become aware of that now!
Love Zanzivar
I am glad to hear you are feeling better too.
Best,
Clyde